S3E9: Empowering Women to be Experts in Tech with Seema Gururaj

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In today’s episode of the Learn to Code With Me podcast, I talk with Seema Gururaj. Seema is the founder and CEO of Square Circle, a platform that helps women technologists grow their profiles within the tech industry.

After studying computer science and working at IBM for eight years, Seema became the director of the Grace Hopper Celebration of Women in Computing at the Anita Borg Institute. She then worked on providing gender equity strategies at a corporate organization before starting Square Circle.

In our conversation, Seema tells us about her journey into social entrepreneurship. She explains why it’s important that women become more visible within the tech world, and how they can share their work with more people. Overall, she reminds us to challenge the lack of diversity in this industry.

This episode was transcribed with the help of an AI transcription tool. Please forgive any typos.

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Laurence Bradford 0:52
Hey everyone, welcome to the learn to code me podcast. I'm your host Laurence Bradford, and today's episode I talk with Seema Gururaj. Seema is the founder and CEO of Square Circle Inc, a professional platform where women technologists can grow their profile as experts and be discovered by event organizers, companies and the media. Before starting Square Circle, Seema worked at IBM as a software engineer, and later was the director of the Grace Hopper celebration of women and computing conference. And this interview, Seema shares advice to women looking to advance their career in tech and build a reputation as an influencer in the space. Remember, you can get Show Notes for this episode, plus more information about Seema at learntocodewith.me/podcast. Enjoy the interview.

Laurence Bradford 1:45
Hi, Sima. Thank you so much for coming on the show.

Seema Gururaj 1:47
Thank you for having me.

Laurence Bradford 1:48
Could you introduce yourself to the audience?

Seema Gururaj 1:50
Yeah, absolutely. So my name is Seema Gururaj, and I'm currently the founder and CEO of Square Circle. Square Circle is a platform where women technologists can grow their profile as experts. And they can be discovered by even curators press and media.

Laurence Bradford 2:08
Yes, it's really exciting what you're doing at Square Circle. However, I do want to back up a little bit and dig into some of your experience in the past because you have quite the experience. And and you've done a lot for women in tech so far in your career, and I love it. So could you explain a bit about your role at the Anita Borg Institute?

Seema Gururaj 2:29
Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, before Anita Borg Institute, I am a woman technologist, myself, that is my background. You know, so I studied computer science. I went to grad school of computer science. And I worked at IBM for eight years before I discovered my love for social entrepreneurship. And that's kind of what led me to the Anita Borg Institute. At the Anita Borg Institute, I was the director of the Grace Hopper celebration. But women in computing for about four years, and, you know, neurons that you know, this was this is one of the largest conferences for women tech today. And it was really, you know, it kind of that role was perfect for me because it kind of married my love for technology, my love for giving back as a as a short social entrepreneur for creating social impact in the world. And also, you know, kind of seeing this this change that would come over the women who would fly in from countries that whose names I can't even pronounce actually was amazing.

Laurence Bradford 3:39
Yeah, that's so awesome. And I've never been to the the Grace Hopper celebration of women conference, but I know a lot of women who have gone but for the lift some listeners who maybe are familiar with it, because you just give like a quick background on what that conference entails.

Seema Gururaj 3:56
Absolutely. So there are different facets. to this conference, it is a technical conference. So there is a lot of content cutting edge content on on the, you know, current tech trends, our Internet of Things, artificial intelligence, you name it, and you can hear a hear of, you know, amazing work that these women are working on in this in these spaces. But what makes us unique is there's also another facet where we talk to organizations about gender equity, we bring them we gather all the C level execs in one room, and we talk to them about best practices, we talk to them about what's working, what's not working. And so there's a there's a level of, you know, kind of approaching it from approaching gender equity from a leadership perspective and also giving the women at safe space to talk about technology and show off their work clearly.

Laurence Bradford 4:53
Yeah, I love that you say that how there's kind of like two sides of the equation or the coin if you will. There's like The women in the roles of the companies and then of course, like the sea level and other leaders, at corporations and kind of like bridging the gap between what is best for, you know, both parties and also again, showing these executives how to make their workplaces more inclusive and all of that.

Seema Gururaj 5:15
Good. And you know, one thing that's interesting Laurence is, even just getting the executives there, and getting them visually to see 10,000 women technologists, is is powerful in itself. You know, honestly, you don't have to do much. You just have to bring them there and just let them see. I think that's a revelation for them. Because often when you hear they don't find women, but they see visually, all these women, it kind of motivates them to do something about it.

Seema Gururaj 5:48
Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I feel like there's some quote I just can't think of right now. But it's something like seeing is believing or something to that end, but yeah, just it's like the first step is just having them come to the conference, or even if They don't even go to the conference like doing some other step, just acknowledging like the issue. And as you said, being at the conference and seeing all these women, it's like evidence that there are women in technology. Absolutely. Yeah. So you must have learned so much in that role, like just organizing those conferences and getting to connect with all these different women and other leaders in tech. So that Yes, Miss Miss such amazing experience. And it also fits perfectly, I think, until your next role, which was that into it where you were a global lead of tech women. So what kind of led to that transition?

Seema Gururaj 6:35
Yeah, that's a that's a great question. So for me, as I was, you know, strategizing about the conference, I was taking it to new heights. I was transforming it. That was around the time if you recall, a lot of the companies released their diversity stats, right. And, and we know the results, it was pretty dismal. Like, you know, it was a company was saying they had just 10% of the technology workforce that were women. And, and one company after the other came up with the dismal stats. So for me, I sat there going, I don't get it. Because like I told you visually, I would see 10,000 58,000 women at the conference. amazingly talented women just doing awesome stuff, right? So I just did not get why there was that disconnect. So for me, the next challenge became, what would it mean to go into an organization and and create gender equity, what's going on within organizations that's making it not equitable for women, right. So that was kind of my motivation to get back into the corporate world and figure out how I could, you know, create that sort of change within an organization.

Laurence Bradford 7:56
Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. It's like wow, play the conferences and in doing so much to like promote women in tech, it was like going back to like getting your feet back in the ground like like making change from within the corporate world. It's kind of like two different things. So I can definitely see that wanting to make that switch and trying to yeah can make make change from within. So you were there for a bit. And now you have your own company square circle, which is again, you know, for the listeners, these are all kind of in this similar following a similar theme, I would say right, empowering women and tech empowering women to get involved in leadership and trying to connect women to two companies. So could you get into a bit about what made you decide to go off on your own and start Square Circle?

Seema Gururaj 8:44
Yeah, I think you know, I have some amazing learnings from my time in the corporate world. And one of the things I realized a couple of things Lawrence one is getting, you know, a couple of people within organizations to Create behavioral changes, if you will, for thousands of people within an organization is hard work, it doesn't happen within a day, right? Everybody comes with with their biases, good or bad, male or female, it doesn't matter. So trying to kind of, you know, getting thousands of people on board and and, and getting them aware of the gender equity issues is hard work. And that was one thing and the second thing I also realized was the best way to create change was to pick a very specific problem that exists like pretty much in any organization. And then for me personally, what I decided to do was choose to influence that change from the outside. So that was really my motivation for for starting my own company. I found very specific problem that that was kind of you know, I saw Across the board, and that that was the reason why I said, You know, I think I need to, I need to do something about it. And the best way for me to get traction and for me to get get women excited about it would be to influence from the outside.

Laurence Bradford 10:17
Okay. So when you say from the outside you mean like as an outside organization? So like not actually working like at the company itself or that key?

Seema Gururaj 10:27
Yeah, correct.

Laurence Bradford 10:28
Yeah. Okay. Cool. Cool. So you mentioned like a specific problem. So like, what is the specific problem that square circle is trying to address?

Seema Gururaj 10:40
That's a great question. So I'm going to put on two different hats to answer that question for you. And the first hat I'll put on is that of when I was the director of the Grace Hopper conference, right. One of the things I truly felt passionate about was to find these images meeting women technologists to give them the stage. And and I mean, don't get me wrong, we'd get a lot of people with big titles coming to us and saying, you know, come on put me up on stage. And I would often ask them, but what are you going to talk about once I give you once I give you that stage? What is it that we do you know, what is the earth shattering technology? What is your point of view that you're going to talk to the world about? And, and that process for me was, took me months to get these to find these women. And it was, you know, we found that there was no doubt about it. So we found women like yoky Matsuoka, Shira Nirenberg Dr. Artie provoca, who was the head of DARPA, we found Laurie fate Craner some. She's an amazing pioneer in the space of cybersecurity. But here's the problem, Laurence, do you, have you heard of any of them?

Laurence Bradford 11:59
No, I don't know exactly.

Seema Gururaj 12:02
Exactly. So what would happen was after they spoke on that stage in that women in tech bubble, and then you would see all these top execs x list of visionaries that came comes out every year. Right? They are missing. They are nowhere in the conversation. And, and that was the that was part that totally baffled me. It's like what's going on here? Why aren't they? You know, why are they on press media or in these lists? Talking about the future of tech, why are they completely missing from these conversations? So that was one hat that that kind of motivated me, I saw a lot of that happening. And the second perspective that or the second hat that I wear is that of being a woman technologist myself, like in the corporate world, it felt like there was a there's a large So let me reframe it a diff differently. There's a level of opportunity, elitism that's existing currently that shutting off voices and perspectives that need to be heard. Right? So if you're an engineer or if you have a point of view in technology, why is it that you're not able to find a platform to share that? You don't need permission? Since when did visibility become a privilege that's offered to only a select few? It's sort of become like an echo chamber, right? You either see the same people talking about it. And if there are women who put themselves out there, you hear you, I mean, you hear from them all the time. So there was a level of like, you know, what's happening with the next generation wind, they stepping forward? And that's really what I'm trying to strive for all these forces kind of married together and that was my motivation to start something like Square Circle.

Laurence Bradford 14:02
Yeah, yeah. So for the second thing that you mentioned, as you called it, the opportunity, elitism, and finding a platform and how visibility, like shouldn't be a privilege. Are you, are you referring like specifically like, like at bigger companies or corporations? Or do you just kind of mean like, in general, or both perhaps?

Seema Gururaj 14:25
Both. It's both. Here's what's happening for the couple of things happening right now. Right? So for women, it's almost becoming like, if you're within an organization, it feels like you need permission to get out there to talk about your work, right? That is one thing. And there's also this whole, you know, I don't know this whole aura around visibility, that it's sort of a bad word right now. So a lot of women are very hesitant because the perception of the Ability that's out there in the world is very loud. And let me elaborate on what I mean by loud, it means that if you, you kind of have made it if you're out there talking in front of 10,000 people, 20,000, 3000 people sitting standing up on stage, and that is, you know, probably the definition of someone who has made it. But the challenge is that a lot of women who have this quiet strength and the way they choose to express it, right now, their options are either zero, or let me get to that point where you know, I'm comfortable enough going in front of a stage and and and, you know, talking to 2000 people. So what I'm trying to tell the women is they can find their authentic pathway through this. It doesn't have to be, you know, either zero or that. If you have a quiet strength and perhaps the way you can still express your technical point of view is to Writing through blogs, to different mediums through different channels through podcasts through interviews like this, right? So there's still a way to get your point across. Yeah, we don't have to be quiet anymore. You know what I mean? So I think that's that's kind of what I'm what I hope my platform will help change.

Laurence Bradford 16:19
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Laurence Bradford 18:31
Yeah, yeah, no, I love that. And just to just to clarify my last question, I guess because I I never worked at a big company. So I you know, I work at a startup or I've always worked for myself. So it's hard for me to fully understand like, what it is like to be at a big organization and kind of feel that way like, um, but I mean, I can definitely, I can definitely picture that. I mean, I can't imagine you know, having worked in a company with thousands and thousands of people and feeling like I was being heard, you know, Even as my company, right the startup I work for where I started when we were I was the 19th employee, and now we're at like over 40. And not that I feel it's still a very small company, you know, but even so it's as it grows as it grows, it definitely. I don't know if the individualism I guess you don't, it starts to wear off. I don't know if that's the right way to word it. But I can't again, I can only imagine a really big company, how that would be,

Seema Gururaj 19:24
You drowned in a sea of voices and the voices that, you know, occasionally the company wants to showcase may not be your voice could be based on where you are in the hierarchy, you know, organization, right. So, I think that but that doesn't mean that you as a software engineer, or product manager or whatever it is, don't have a unique technical point of view that the world should hear about.

Laurence Bradford 19:56
Yeah, yeah, definitely. So I have like tons of questions written down that I I took them before just more like advice based questions. So hopefully we can get to least a few of these. I'm really excited. So obviously, you're super passionate about getting women out to speak and to speak at events and to speak at conferences. I've said this once I've said it again, I'm not scared of public speaking. But I definitely don't go out of my way to speak at events and conferences. So what kind of advice would you have for someone like me or other listeners to like how they can take these first steps and also just like what the value is of speaking at an event or conference?

Seema Gururaj 20:34
Yeah, absolutely. So I tell people, two things. One is, this is not about fame. It's not about fame. But it's more about if you're passionate about a particular technology or something that you're working on. And you want to share it with the world. That's what this is about. Right? You kind of reframe your thinking. Along those lines, and then all of a sudden, it liberates you in a way. You know, you're like, yeah, I mean, I love AI, or I love IoT. And this is what I'm doing. And I want to, you know, I want to talk about it. I talk about it all the time. So all I'm doing is, you know, talking to a larger audience about it. Now, specifically to answer your question about the fear, right? So I always ask women couple of things. One is, do you really want to talk? I mean, if that is not your pathway, let's find you a pathway where you feel comfortable, right? If talking and speaking is not your pathway. Let's still try to build your credibility online in an alternate manner. You could write for magazines, right? You could write articles, technical articles for magazines that get published, and that could be your high that could be your Senate for you.

Seema Gururaj 21:54
Or alternatively, if that is a skill that you do want to develop then I do have Square circle coaches, and I'm very cognizant of the fact that different people learn differently. So if that is a skill that you want to acquire, I have different ways for you to learn that. And, you know, the beauty about it is my opportunity bucket is right there. So there's a way for you to practice that, and not feel like oh, you know, I learned something. And two years later, let me try it out. Right. It's not a lost skill. It's something that, you know, has a direct way for you to practice it. So, yeah, I mean, I hope, you know, first of all, women don't feel pressurized that that's the only way to get their point of view across. But if that is you something you want to develop, we have a way to help you.

Laurence Bradford 22:45
Yeah, I love and I really loved what you said in the beginning about reframing your thinking so not to thinking just more about like sharing your passion, like it's what you're interested in, you're knowledgeable on the subject, and you know, by talking about it, you're helping others that always that always helps me a lot whenever I frame things as like, I'm helping other people and not making it about myself or my nerves or my fear. And this doesn't even have to apply to speaking can apply to like anything. It um, yeah, really takes the pressure off.

Seema Gururaj 23:12
Exactly. Yeah.

Laurence Bradford 23:14
Yes. Okay, so changing directions just a little bit. Another area I'm just super interested in. So I guess it's kind of a little bit of a selfish question. But women in leadership roles and I was reading some article a bit ago, and it had these statistics about like women in tech and then like women in leadership, I think it may have been specific to tech companies or maybe just in general, I'm not sure but the it just the drop off rate is insane. So like, just you know, women in technical roles, let's just say like on average, like 20 to 30% or something and then it was like women in leadership, it was like maybe like 10 to 15% So do you have any advice for women that want to get more involved at their current company or maybe one the future? I'm in like a leadership role, like what can they do?

Seema Gururaj 23:57
When it comes to the women and were already there and what they can do, I think, you know, getting out there talking about your work has so many benefits, you know, it gives you that confidence, it gives you that, that, that sense that that you have a place in this tech tech world, regardless of you know, if your immediate team or whatever, if you have that environment that's that's supporting you internally or not. When you go out there, people hear your point of view, and therefore you kind of more motivated, you come back more motivated, more energized back into your workplace and you give it almost 200% more. So in a way, this is a subtle way to kind of, you know, help yourself as well.

Seema Gururaj 24:46
And, and yeah, I mean, I mean, there's so many things that women in leadership can do another another strategy that I've seen work for some women is giving back right to somebody very, kind of very, you don't think about yourself but you're thinking about just giving back to, you know, by to mentoring or through other other ways, whatever makes you feel better about, you know, whatever makes you feel comfortable. That's another way where, you know, I think you get your value back, you get your confidence back, you know that you have something to offer. And, you know, yeah, I think, you know, the Apart from that, I think you know, that just plenty of things that that the women can do, just depends on what the where it is that they feel they're lacking.

Laurence Bradford 25:44
Yes, I loved a few things that you said First, the quote, it takes two hands to clap. I love that. I didn't get to use that. It's that's great. The other thing that you said was about, like getting out there and maybe sharing your experiences to like at a conference or through writing or through you know, some other way. And then when you come back to your company, you feel like, I think it's like 200% times better or maybe more motivated to do your job. And I totally agree with that. So I just think of like different things I do outside of work. For instance, I took a course recently, I'm product management. And I feel like it has been very empowering like in my current role, and definitely is made me feel like more confident in what I'm doing. And not just not just that feeling, but also like I know I am because I learned so much to the class, I'm able to apply to my job. So it's really awesome. And again, of course, I love the strategy of giving back. You mentioned mentoring, I feel like there's also for the for the people listening, volunteering is a great way and there's especially - Yeah, I live in a city I mean, there's so many organizations off the top my head I'm thinking of once like a Girl Develop It -

Seema Gururaj 26:47
Girls Who Code.

Laurence Bradford 26:48
Yeah, Girls Who Code, yeah.

Seema Gururaj 26:51
That's another great one. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah.

Laurence Bradford 26:55
Yes, it's a great way. So for women interviewing at a company. So you know they're intact? Or maybe they're more experienced? Maybe not. And they're interviewing for jobs. Are there any red flags that you could pick up on, like, during your interview or before you accept an offer that the company may not be the most inclusive? Yeah, I've made them not the most inclusive.

Seema Gururaj 27:23
Yeah, I think it's very important for us to ask questions. It's not a guarantee that you'll get the right answer. But you know, there's this whole hiring for cultural fit that's going on in the industry these days, which is really something that you should you should question. What does that mean? Right? What does hiring for cultural fit mean? And, and once you're in, I would honestly try and figure out how the person that you're reporting to, how do they promote people? What kind of people do they provide remote. How do you and you know, talk talk a lot to the people that you're going to work with. There are ways to kind of assess that because a lot of times companies have these big value goals, right?

Seema Gururaj 28:17
Oh, we want somebody who's entrepreneurial. We want somebody who's, who's high integrity. And and most people are. I would say a lot of people are high integrity. But the thing about entrepreneurial is that that's fantastic. So entrepreneurs have this are built a certain way they go from idea to execution, just like that. And they also not afraid to fail. Now, if you put them in an environment where if every time you fail, that reflects on your performance review, that is a bad culture fit, that's a bad match. So how do you ask the right questions to figure out if if you know you are first of all a value, baby From a value perspective, you're, you're you're going to fit into the team. And inclusion is, that's going to be a little harder to assess at interview time. But I'm sure you you can ask, you know, questions in in ways that could probably draw some of those things.

Laurence Bradford 29:19
Yeah. Yeah, that's that's great advice. I said some awesome stuff there about the culture alignment. And I loved a little anecdote you gave about a company saying they want like employees to be entrepreneurial, and then maybe like, you know, messing up, and that reflects poorly on a performance review, which isn't really aligned with like one of the core values of the company if that's the case. So yeah, that's really great. Another thing that I did when I was applying to jobs A while back, was look at the company website if like this information is available or on LinkedIn and seeing like who like the leaders are people in the sea level or you know VPS and whatnot and kind of looking at the the breakdown diversity that way because they were A few places where I was going to the page. It was like, you know, our executive team and it was literally all like, you know, white men. Like, I was like, I don't know if you know that if I'm, if I can be completely honest, like I was really not interested in even interviewing anywhere. If that was the case, I just was like, off the bat, like, that's probably not a good sign not gonna be a good fit for me if that's, um, you know, what I'm seeing on the company about page.

Seema Gururaj 30:22
Yeah, and, you know, ask them directly, what are the programs that and most companies have, you know, employee resource groups and things like that. So it's good to ask these sort of questions to kind of assess how important are those groups there, you know, that's another thing do they just exist and they just, you know, run one event after the other and then they say that's their goal, or is the goal really to create a sort of, they have a chain through which they can talk to the C level executives and share what that specific group needs and change has happened because of that. That that is a culture you want to get into. Right? That's an environment that's inclusive that listens to the people. Yeah, and I love your suggestion about looking, you know, very simply looking at your leadership team and seeing if they even have diverse diversity there.

Laurence Bradford 31:16
Yeah, and I so with the, the programs that you mentioned, I, again, working on really small startup, we don't have those kinds of things just yet, but I'm sure most larger companies, even midsize companies definitely have these things. And I love that like not just asking about like, oh, like the events they hold but actually seeing if any action is taken by like the C level team based on suggestions they make and whatnot. So yeah, that's a really good tip. And I feel like that's not something inappropriate to ask in an interview either. And I don't mean inappropriate, but I know there's certain questions or certain things you maybe cannot really find out just during the interview stage. It's really going to be when you start working there and start like getting adjusted to the you know, the, the, the team you're working with. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, this was really awesome Sema, thank you so much for sharing all of this information. Do you have any kind of like parting advice for women in tech and women who want to be in leadership or just just really any kind of general advice?

Seema Gururaj 32:17
Yeah, thanks for giving me this opportunity to talk to the women. I have a couple of things that I want to kind of put out there for the women who are listening. One is that I would love for a lot of the women especially in you know, women technologists, to start talking more about, you know, the technology that you're working on. For some reason for us talking about work life balance or negotiating or soft skills comes easier. And my and don't get me wrong. I'm not saying we shouldn't talk about things. That's an integral part of who we are. But the point is, if we I'm not talking about this. And we're not talking about future of tech, we are not next to the Elon Musk's and the Mark Zuckerberg of the world, we are completely missing from those conversations, that is talking about the future of technology. Somebody else is telling the world what the future of technology is, why you are creating it. So, you know, let's start.

Seema Gururaj 33:21
Let's start simply simply by talking about more about, you know, the tech in the work that you're doing. And the second thing that I want to kind of share with you is that this definitely a place for these women in tech events. And you know, I create one of the biggest ones, so I know there is a need for that. But, you know, let's let's step back for a second and just think about it statistically right from a data perspective. In the US currently, and I'm probably being very generous here. If you look at the gender breakdown in technology, let's say 75% of them are men and 25. Are women, right? So with the women in tech events, really, I mean, if you say something, how many people are actually listening to you? Maybe? Or let's, let's flip it, how many people are not hearing you? 75% plus 90% of the 25%. You know, I mean, if you if you kind of do the math, it's such a small fraction of people who are getting to hear your point of view. So my hope is that, you know, we continue to evolve, and not just, you know, stay within the women in tech bubble, but let's go out there. Let's kind of, let me be the person to help you get out there into, you know, these larger platforms where definitely your voices need to be heard. Yeah, and I hope that, you know, I can help you there and I'm looking forward to a day where, you know, two years down the line? I don't want to hear that visibility is a problem anymore. I don't want to hear event organizers or present media saying where do we find these amazing women technologists? No, we are here and we exist. And hopefully a lot of you are on the platform and I can get you there.

Laurence Bradford 35:21
Thank you so much. Seema is great to have you on. And finally, where can people find you online?

Seema Gururaj 35:27
Yeah, absolutely. So you can find me on my website, www.asquarecircle, all one word .com, or you can connect with me on LinkedIn.

Laurence Bradford 35:39
Awesome. Thank you again for coming on.

Seema Gururaj 35:40
Thank you so much.

Laurence Bradford 35:47
I hope you found value from our conversation. Again, the Show Notes for this episode can be found at learntocodewith.me/podcast. If you're listening to this episode in the future, simply click the Search icon in the upper navigation of the site and type in Seema's name. Her full name is spelled like S-E-E-M-A, and her last name G-U-R-U-R-A-J. If you enjoyed this interview, head on over to my website, learntocodewith.me where you can find even more awesome code related content, like my 10 Free Tips for Teaching Yourself How to Code. Thanks so much for tuning in, and I'll see you next week.

Key takeaways:

  • Many of the top female visionaries are missing from the media.
  • If you’re a woman, start talking about the work you’re doing.
  • If you’re nervous about sharing your ideas, focus on helping others and sharing your passion. This should take some of the pressure off!
  • If speaking isn’t your thing, you don’t have to get on stage. Find another way to tell your story – write an article for a magazine, start a podcast, or create a blog.
  • If you want to take on a leadership role, look for opportunities to mentor others, volunteer, or take a course outside of work.
  • When interviewing for a job, ask questions and talk to the people you’d be working with. You can also look on LinkedIn or on the company’s website to see how diverse the team is.

Links and mentions from the episode:

Thanks for listening!

Thanks so much for tuning in! Remember, you can listen to the Learn to Code With Me podcast on the following platforms:

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Special thanks to this episode’s sponsors

Level: Level from Northeastern University provides short-term, intensive programs where learners gain in-demand tech skills and experience. Go to leveledu.com/apply and enter the promo code learntocode to get a 15% discount.

Rithm School: Rithm offers 200+ hours of free online courses and is an amazing resource for anyone looking to become an exceptional fullstack web developer. Sign up and start learning at rithmschool.com/courses.